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Stadiumville

February 18th, 2014

Stadiumville concept for Rochester: by Jerry DeCarolis
The Rochesterian has blogged several times about the need to create a link external link between Frontier Field and Sahlen’s Stadium… and how Rochester needs someone like Buffalo Sabres owner Terry Pegula to invest in a Harbor Center external link type of development centered around Rochester’s sports arenas. I don’t disagree. Rochester’s stadiums (and the neighborhoods around them) could, and should be a much bigger draw.

Last April a local businessman named Jerry DeCarolis sent me a concept plan he put together called “Stadiumville.” I was impressed. But this plan was so ambitious, and so broad-sweeping, I wasn’t quite sure how seriously to take it. And so I ended up sitting on the document – until now…

Stadiumville concept for Rochester: Site Plan
When ever I see an urban infill development plan of this scale I take it with more than a few grains of salt. There are of course a lot of moving parts to consider; the existing community/neighbors, environmental impact, funding, *gasp* GENTRIFICATION, etc. etc. etc. But all realities aside for a moment, Stadiumville is VERY exciting.

Stadiumville would stretch across four existing neighborhoods surrounding Frontier Field external link and Sahlen’s Stadium external link. It would create fourteen distinct residential ‘micro-neighborhoods’ (with some retail mixed in). It would include a hotel, two new parking garages, a public ball field, and a massive new retail & entertainment district surrounding a new plaza which would create a connection between the two stadiums. DeCarolis compared the entertainment district portion of his plan to the equivalent of two Park Points in Henrietta.

Stadiumville concept for Rochester: Kodak Square
DeCarolis says, “Although many parts of this community are nice, Rochester lacks an entertainment and tourist district that we can be proud of – Stadiumville is that district…This village-style development will provide the scale, amenities, and atmosphere needed to shift from a now contagious mediocrity mindset.”

Stadiumville concept for Rochester: Hotel & Garage
Much of the new development fill existing surface parking lots including a few Kodak lots. So there’d have to be a lot of land acquisition and collaboration with the City of Rochester and others. But again, let’s suppress reality for the moment and consider the possibilities here. Imagine active streets lined with buildings instead of the urban desert we have here now.

Download the project overview sheet here (PDF) external link

Stadiumville concept for Rochester: Garden Homes
DeCarolis circulated the idea between 2007-2010 and concedes it didn’t get much traction… maybe due to the recession, or his lack of connections in the development community. His goal was to get it into the hands of an architect or developer that could lead a group to execute something of this scale. He told me he sent copies to Mark IV, LeChase, Buckingham, Wilmorite, and pitched it to the Duffy Administration.

Stadiumville concept for Rochester: Apartments
Perhaps with the increasing momentum of downtown development, combined with other small scale projects in the area (GardenAerial, JOSANA multi-use trail, etc.) this Stadiumville idea will catch on – one day.

Stadiumville concept for Rochester: Townhomes
So… What do you think??

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This entry was posted on Tuesday, February 18th, 2014 at 7:58 am and is filed under Rochester Destinations, Urban Development. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can skip to the end and leave a response. Pinging is currently not allowed.

31 Responses to “Stadiumville”

  1. skb says:

    As someone who enjoys games at both Sahlen’s Stadium and Frontier Field, this would be amazing.

  2. Nlang says:

    creative projects like this are what bring more people downtown, instead of driving in and going to the game you may make a day out of it, or an evening. it can bring sum added income back to the city.

  3. Irene says:

    Mr DeCarolis obviously put a lot of thought and effort into this. The renderings look great, and go a long way to spark people’s perceptions of what is possible in this area. It’s time to stop moping about Kodak and view all those lots as an opportunity!

    Check out the rendering of Fenway St entrance view from Child. Is that structure on the corner a gorgeous bus shelter?

  4. jimmy says:

    Wrigley St. …that’s cute, Go Cubs!! This is awesome. Here is what I have been thinking, simply work on Oak St first. You would have to get the existing businesses there to relocate, then demolish all existing stuctures and build townhouses and maybe a 3-4 story apartment building. Install Security-survalence cameras EVERYWHERE because the ghetto is a hop, skip and a jump away. The Sahlen Parking Lot should have been extended to Saratoga Ave. So those old houses would have to be demolished. Also the houses directly west of that stadium should be demolished as well. That’s a start.

  5. Frank Underwood says:

    Mr. DeCarolis is a visionary. Years ahead of his time!!!!! Lovely Warren should seriously consider taking the time to sit with Mr.DeCarolis and listen to his ideas. As a city, if we continue to go down the same path, we’ll being having this same conversation 20 years from now. Nice job Mr. DeCarolis!!!!! I think many would agree!!!!

  6. Mittens says:

    Unfortunately I feel that this will have a very hard time gaining traction among most Rochesterians.

    If only the Rhinos went to MLS…

  7. RochesterSportsFan says:

    This plan is tremendous and needs to be looked at as a joint City & County initiative. People use these facilities from all over Rochester, just nit city or county residents. Far too many people do not realize the actual economic impact of the stadiums. Far too often people only look at the initial price tag. Sahlen’s Stadium has actually paid for itself through hosting the Drum Corps Associates World Championships five of the last seven years. These five events alone have had over a $50 million economic impact directly from the people coming to Rochester. That is not factoring the residual impact from the benefits received by the local hotels, restaurants etc. I hope the powers that be finally take notice and realize the “jems” we have in Rochester instead of focusing on what we don’t.

  8. DJ says:

    Love it, Love it, Love it.

    Just need to make sure it’s done with ‘walkability’ & other smart development principles in mind. It’d be so sad if they went to all the effort & it ended up being more cement walls & giant parking lots.

    I think we’re starting to move past that thinking, but the war is far from over, & political/business forces still need to be held accountable or else projects lurch towards the garbage we’re getting with ‘CityGate’

  9. Jason Haremza says:

    Wow. If legit, it’s very impressive.

    Questions:
    How much public money is he expecting?

    Will this be bait and switch? Or “value engineered” down to a few restaurants lining a parking lot? That’s what happened with the stadium related development in St. Louis

    Why does Rochester have to borrow other cities names and traditions? Fenway? Wrigley? Don’t we have great local sports history to celebrate?

    Most importantly, this covers an area, JOSANA, that has done a great deal of grassroots planning. I admire the vision, especially for the blocks between the stadiums, but am concerned about how the neighborhood would perceive this.

  10. Jason Haremza says:

    As I re-read the article, I’m also really troubled by this statement: “Although many parts of this community are nice, Rochester lacks an entertainment and tourist district that we can be proud of.”

    The last thing I look for when I travel is the “tourist district.” After a trip or two, how many people seek out Times Square or Yonge Street? Tourists want to experience the authentic place. When I host visitors to our fair city I take them to the Public Market, George Eastman House, Charlotte Pier, High Falls, etc. etc. That which makes Rochester unmistakably and wonderfully Rochester.

  11. Brian says:

    There are many aspects of this proposal (not the least bit the widespread renaming and 1990s style “tourist” redevelopment) that make me doubt the seriousness of this proposal. It’s easy to draw pictures of hotels and new parks, but who is going to pay for them? Is any of this financially feasible for a private developer? I highly doubt it. You can’t solve the poverty issues that are stalling reinvestment in this neighborhood simply by renaming the streets and building colonial town homes.

  12. Adrian says:

    Anyone can waltz into a crap neighborhood and come up with some ideas of how he would level the entire thing and rebuild it with an unlimited budget. I have an idea, what if we leveled Jefferson Avenue and replaced it with Canandaigua’s Main St? What’s really needed is a bunch of small, standalone, achievable projects that can eventually add up to something like this in a couple decades. Drawings like these are pretty but pointless.

  13. Jason Haremza says:

    What Adrian said…

  14. Matthew Denker says:

    I have to admit, this is a site of thought about many times over the years. I have considered doing a filling in on some or all of it, but it’s just so convoluted.

    So stepping back from Mr. DeCarolis’s plan a moment, let’s think about some of the plusses and minuses of the physical environment.

    On the plus side, there’s a couple stadiums, one of the city’s most successful office districts, a number of great railroad right of ways to allow for great high-density off-road public transportation (even better than a streetcar!). Further, one of Rochester’s great parks is here too, and it’s not like anyone is building new FLO parks, amirite?

    On the minus side, the area has enough parking to make Eastview Mall jealous, the neighborhood is plagued by a number of less-than-ideal uses such as garages, there is huge momentum to want to preserve ALL parking at the expense of the greater good.

    Ok, full circle. Here’s some things I’ve thought about that the area could use:

    First, I think it’s time for the owners of the parking lot at Frontier field, particularly the one on state st, to consider surrendering some of it to dense, street-facing retail with office space and residential above. I imagine a relatively narrow rectangular building the entire block. Ideally, a new street would be put down the center between plymouth and state and allow for 2 of these buildings. Parking could remain in the middle, although if the sheer terror of losing any parking at all (or not adding more), then I imagine you could excavate the entire block 1 level and put in underground parking. This would allow for two u shaped buildings with a public plaza in the interior, bisected by a new street. Parking could be kept aboveboard using bulb outs.

    Second, Brown Square Park is Rochester’s absolute best shot at surrounding a park with high density housing in either the older, refined sense (Gramercy Park, NYC) or modern, hip sense (The Fields, Portland). This is something Rochester shouldn’t just have, it needs. And it’s unlikely UofR will do it in the most profitable spot on the east end (or anyone else over there, either).

    Third, I think any transportation innovation in Rochester almost has to be based on starting here. Reusing the ROW of the subway, combined with and in-traffic streetcar through downtown and connecting to the east end connects the areas of the city with some of the highest potential and most need with the areas that are most established. Surely this is a pipe dream, because the denizens of the east end will assuredly scream about “those people” having access to “their neighborhood,” but it is already those people washing dishes and bussing tables and cleaning rooms. Why should they struggle to get to their jobs?

    Fourth, I think big chunks of the neighborhood need to see very small scale infill that puts together the pieces on houses that were allowed to fail and then get torn down. This is maybe the hardest thing, because there’s no good economy of scale to this kind of change. It won’t happen overnight.

    Fifth and final thing for now, something needs to be done about the highway underpasses. It’s too much to ask that the inner loop comes down, and even if it did, the railroad tracks would still be there (which is ok). With that in mind, some sort of lighting/beautification/etc needs to be done to make the underpasses less of a barrier to entering the neighborhood. The number of residents is growing on the south side of everything, and it’s time for these people to feel safer traveling north. With the stadiums, there’s already a reason. Now there needs to be a way.

  15. jimmy says:

    Adrian says, “Drawings like these are pretty but pointless.”
    @Adrian, I couldn’t disagree with you more. Individuals should share what their idea of utopia is. It’s important. We should have our eyes set on the prize and be reminded of that prize often. Once, a person’s vision of utopia is complete, then people can form a plan to $$ efficiently $$$ attain that utopia. I will tell you what’s pointless, basically telling someone who shared his thought’s about improving a struggling section of the city to shut up, meanwhile I haven’t heard what your plans are for this part of the city.

  16. ACW says:

    It strikes me that a stadium is a poor site to use as the core of this kind of proposal. Stadiums are only used a few hours a day for a few months out of the year. Look at the area surrounding Yankee Stadium, the most famous sports site in America–not exactly a thriving neighborhood.

  17. Mike Bruton says:

    The illustrations are dreamlike. In reality there must be real improvement at Sahlen’s stadium before any grand projects. I don’t think this project is going to be Sahlen’s savior. Centalized parking and renovations to the neighborhood area on Broad Street would be a start.

    Maybe this sounds crazy, but why couldn’t we connect Frontier Field and Sahlen’s Stadium by monorail. A covered arena could be built in between the two for the Razorsharks. We could expand parking lot areas and really publicly push the area as a tailgaters Mecca. There would be lots of room for flea markets and festivals. Stadiumville? Let’s fix what we’ve got first.

  18. Illustrations are by their nature, Illustrations. Jimmy’s last point is right on… You cannot have progress without vision and a plan.

    This vision may be grandiose in scale, but it’s not outside the realm of possibility given time. Does it get built all at once? Not a chance. But block by block? Yeah, that may be possible. Rome wasn’t built in a day, right? Look at the City’s master plan… why would we waste time and money putting that plan together… “it’s SO big, with so many dreamy illustrations. How pointless!” That’s just silly.

    The work that the JOSANA neighbors have done is a terrific start. Why not build around that momentum?

  19. Adrian says:

    Most of DeCarolis’ plans require demolishing the houses of the JOSANA neighbors that have apparently been doing a terrific job.

  20. I didn’t say I support all the pieces and parts of the plan 😉

  21. Matthew Denker says:

    Well, from that perspective, the best parts are restoring street grids and fixing the abominable over paved portions of the neighborhood. For facilities that are infrequently used, there should be more overlap of parking (even if it means shuttles being run from one set of lots to one or the other stadium). The worst parts are the teardown of perfectly good, reasonably dense housing stock to be replaced with perfectly good, somewhat less dense, and architecturally discordant housing stock. That’s difficult to endorse.

    On a separate development note, has everyone here seen the new renderings and plans for Midtown? Could it really all be happening starting in a few weeks?

  22. Agreed.

    For anyone who hasn’t seen them, those midtown renderings are here.

  23. Stephen Karl says:

    The nearly 20 favorable responses support the idea that urban living has entered the greater Rochester psyche. The ‘vision” would have a phased approach I imagine and anytime local interest in development occurs serious consideration should be given.
    Local developers offer many benefits towards the planning process and facilitating political will for such suggested change.
    My suggestion would be that the townhomes take on a more contemporary/urban design.
    As always great to see ideas like this covered by Rochester Subway.

  24. Jason Haremza says:

    Re: Mr. Denker:

    “I think it’s time for the owners of the parking lot at Frontier field, particularly the one on state st, to consider surrendering some of it to dense, street-facing retail with office space and residential above…”

    I could not agree more. As of last year, the citizens of Monroe County are the proud owners of 439 parking spaces in the lot bounded by Plymouth, Morrie Silver, State and the railroad. That’s likely the whole block, although the legislative approval documents that I could find reference “a portion” of 231 State Street. The County purchased it for MCC.

    I would love to see an innovative approach to the public investment that will be made to this public land. Ideally, a row of small business incubator spaces related to the college could be constructed on the south side of Morrie Silver, and carved out of the monolithic former Kodak building on the north side. Given the history of campus planning (or lack thereof) at the MCC Brighton campus, I won’t hold my breath.

  25. Brian says:

    Jason:

    If indeed the county owns most of the lot, that’s about 6 acres of prime real estate being wasted on surface parking. The only explanation for the lack of change on that site is a lack of vision for the greater high falls neighborhood. Though like you, I am skeptical that they will do anything of note on the lot, nor will State Street turn into a commercial corridor so long as it is a 6-lane monstrosity.

  26. Matthew Denker says:

    @Jason, this raises the stupid question of the day, how willing would the city be to reconfigure the geometry of State St. at this location? At 6 moving lanes and a turn lane, it is intensely too wide to allow for this parking lot to be transformed into the natural extension of High Falls that it should be. Ideally, the ROW would be narrowed and this lot would be made larger. That’s difficult, though, so in lieu of that, would extended sidewalks (large enough for outdoor cafes, perhaps), a wide, landscaped median (possibly with a bike path in the middle like in Queens Plaza, NYC), and a new traffic light breaking the block in half be viable? The light should be lined up with the current Garage entrance turn lane.

    Anyway, just some thoughts, because honestly, this is one of the few spots I could see successful new commercial (office) development, and residential development hear, especially on the nice end like what Buckingham did on the other side of the tracks, would knock it out of the park. You could even build a nice midrise tower and it’d fit perfectly.

  27. Jason Haremza says:

    From their point of view, it’s not wasted real estate. It’s necessary for the success of MCC, since safe, ample, free parking is likely one of the reasons being given for moving to the Kodak site.

    Sadly, the County is not any less visionary than the majority of people in this region whose vision generally begins and ends with: “where will I park?” If that is the mentality, then this is ideal: over 400 spaces all within sight of the main entrance! Just like the mall! No scary parking garages to deal with. No confusing on-street parking.

  28. Matthew Denker says:

    Bad news, I guess. The lot is more than 800 spaces, so if they only own 400, tough tomatoes. Hopefully they own the 400 facing State, and not the 400 facing Plymouth Ave. It’d be good to figure that out.

    Also, I question the value of a giant parking lot sopping up resources for a community college in a downtown where 25% of the people don’t even have access to a car in their HH. This says exactly who MCC is serving, and it’s not “those people.”

  29. Jason Haremza says:

    One would like to think that for a project as important as a new PUBLIC community college campus, the county would engage in a PUBLIC design process, gathering community input, exploring difference options, etc.

    But that’s not how Monroe County rolls…

  30. DeWain Feller says:

    The area desperately needs infill development. We as a community should agree on this and start moving forward. While I do find Mr. DeCarolis’ plans quite pie-in-the sky, it is good when someone with vision pushes the agenda away from seas of parking and suburban-style development and toward the urbanist development that we really need.

    I agree that we should not focus on creating an “entertainment” or “leisure” district. We should focus on creating good infill development, and let the retail follow naturally. While the stadiums are an asset to the area, any successful development would need to have a much broader appeal.

    Successful urbanist development also needs a strong transit catalyst. The reason why the area looks the way that it does today is because of our focus on parking. Urbanist developments need strong transit, especially a modern streetcar/ light rail that uses a combination of street surfaces and railroad/subway rights of way in the area. We need to get serious about transit in this town, or else we will never be able to enjoy the urban renaissance that the rest of the county is enjoying.

  31. Nathanael says:

    Something THIS ambitious — this much density over this large an area — would need a restoration of Rochester Streetcar service. Oh, look, there’s already a subway route through there… (sigh)


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