Topics

1. Mike D says:

   February 11, 2015 at 7:39 am

   This issue is especially poignant for downtown as walkability is an essential part of keeping it vibrant during the winter. If people can’t walk from their car to a business without getting their socks wet from snow, nobody will want to come downtown.

   With the city sidewalk plows taking care of everyone else’s mess, public sidewalks (bridges, parks, etc.) suffer.

   This is also another case where the city should be cracking down on vacant building and parking lot owners – they’re always the worst offenders.

   As for reporting offenders, it would be great if there was an easier, modern way to report offenders. Is 311 the appropriate number to call? If not, how? It would be awesome if there was some way to report offenders by marking the properties on a map. Perhaps the city could make a new use for it’s geographical information systems.

2. ryan says:

   February 11, 2015 at 7:59 am

   Would the pedestrians of Rochester actually use the sidewalk if it was cleaned?

   I go out of my way to clean off the sidewalk in front of my house and neighbors houses, and the people walk in the street anyway….

3. kmannkoopa says:

   February 11, 2015 at 9:00 am

   Syracuse has had huge battles over this and I’d prefer not to go down that road:

   http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2014/11/syracuse_council_again_considers_50_fines_for_people_who_dont_shovel_sidewalks.html

   There likely are no good solutions to this problem. What about our poor and elderly neighbors who cannot afford to shovel their sidewalks? We have to be careful about imposing a poor tax on the group of people who physically cannot shovel or afford the service. Saying that neighbors can help is often just not true.

   Rochester is the only one of the three cities upstate that plows the sidewalks, if anything we could petition to lower the threshold for sidewalk plowing. The Highland Park and South Wedge neighborhoods of Rochester are more or less completely plowed — sidewalk and road. I just hope it isn’t a case of “Two Rochesters” rearing its head.

4. Ruth Nederlk says:

   February 11, 2015 at 9:07 am

   Think this generation is lazy wait till their kids become adults. Get those kids out off their butts and make them do something. Make them earn those nice computers and electronics that they are enjoying and never go out and earn some money. When you get old and disabled like so many are today will they do for you? I am sure the mayor and all the politics get somebody to do their walks and buildings downtown.

5. Renee says:

   February 11, 2015 at 9:13 am

   I think this brings up the fundamental problem of how we prioritize pedestrians (and any mode of transportation that isn’t a car). If we want a more walkable community, we need to make it easier for all people (regardless of the mode of transportation) to get about the city all year round. Sidewalk clearing should be part of the normal routine to allow people to walk and take mass transit. We would never consider leaving the street plowing to individual property owners. Emergency vehicles need to be able to get through, so street clearing should absolutely be given priority. But sidewalk clearing should be included in the general pecking order somewhere.

6. Scott Wagner says:

   February 11, 2015 at 9:27 am

   Agreed. Truly disgraceful. This morning on my ride to work on East Henrietta Road near the South Avenue intersection I saw a woman waiting for the bus, holding her young child’s hand and with another in a stroller. The roadside pile of snow and car snot reached halfway up the bus stop sign. The woman was standing in the traffic lane, since not only the curb and sidewalk but also the shoulder were buried.
   Two others were waiting at the same stop; they were standing on top of the pile ankle-deep in the filthy snow (an option not available to you if you have a stroller and a small child.)
   Of course, despite the absurd inaccessibility of the pedestrian and transit resources, the road was sparkling clean and dry – a paean to the arrogant culture of automotive privilege in which we live.

7. Adrian Martin says:

   February 11, 2015 at 11:45 am

   If someone goes on vacation, who shovels their sidewalk? If someone’s in the hospital? What about a single parent of an infant – strap the infant to your back and go out there and shovel?

   There are so many factors that could get in the way of a person being able to shovel their sidewalk, that makes the potential for fining people really unfair IMO. Like Renee said above, if someone proposed that individual property owners are responsible for clearing the street in front of their house, they’d be laughed out of town, because cars are important. Sidewalks are not important thus it’s up to individuals.

   I live near Highland Park and the sidewalks in my neighborhood are decent. It took a while for them to get plowed, but they eventually were, and now they’re passable (still a couple inches of snowpack on them). But walking downtown is very difficult. Even in front of some of the county buildings like the Hall of Justice, the sidewalk was borderline impassable for almost a week. Would the City issue a ticket to the County?

   IMO, if the streets are plowed, then the sidewalks should be plowed as well, including the buildup of snow at every corner where street plows dump the snow. I’d be 100% willing to pay $25/year in taxes for that level of service (apparently that’s what Brighton offers?).

8. Jill Frier says:

   February 11, 2015 at 1:32 pm

   Actually, I believe the sidewalk plows are a waste. They leave a couple inches of snow behind, which then get muddled up with people trying to walk on the sidewalk. The snow melts, freezes, and then it’s lumpy, uneven ice. Forcing property owners to shovel eliminates this problem, as a shovel gets down to pavement, which the sidewalk plow does not.

   I live in an area where the sidewalk plows are used, and the sidewalks are still unusable in snowy winters.

9. Christine says:

   February 11, 2015 at 2:02 pm

   My question: Why does the City School District appear to be exempt from keeping the sidewalks on its property clear? I live near a school, and the plow drivers (independent contractors) who clear the school parking lot push the snow right onto the side walk into giant piles that even the city’s sidewalk plows couldn’t move. So I’m required by law to keep the sidewalks in front of my house clear even though anyone using them can’t go any further than my house without walking in the street anyway.

10. Martin Edic says:

    February 11, 2015 at 2:39 pm

    Take a look at your tax bill from the City- you have a line item for sidewalk plowing. So, the City is actually on the hook for this regardless of where they throw the blame. And it has been much worse the last two winters since Warren got rid of some very competent operations people to she could embed her friends. Long term competent City Hall people are leaving in droves.

11. ACW says:

    February 11, 2015 at 7:33 pm

    I grew up in Northern NJ, and there was a town ordinance that your sidewalk had to be clear 24 hours after the snow stopped falling. While this area gets maybe 1/2 as much snow as Western NY, 95% of homes were shoveled. If you couldn’t do it, you paid a neighborhood kid 10 bucks to do it.

    I think it will be hard to change the “no-shoveling culture” here, though. One big difference is in NJ most people shovel/snowblow their own drives, while here most people pay for a plow service to clear the drive. And once people can get their car out, many stop caring.

12. Joe Crescente says:

    February 11, 2015 at 10:06 pm

    John Kerry got busted for not shoveling. http://www.politico.com/story/2015/01/john-kerry-snow-shovel-ticket-boston-114748.html

    And this is what a friend said about their town: “In La Crosse, Wisconsin, you get 12 hours from the time it stops snowing to shovel. If you don’t, the city does it for you and then charges an insane amount of money per foot they shovel on your behalf. In sum, it’s effective. We’re not as big as Rochester, NY (almost 52,000), but it works. Maybe something like that would work there too?”

    You are responsible for your property even if you are away. Hire a kid or make friends with the neighbors. I know we get a ton of snow, but people seem to complain about it because they feel trapped in the winter. My point in writing this letter was that people have a right to walk safely in the winter. People need to think of others in “common” areas.

13. Ruth Nederlk says:

    February 12, 2015 at 1:46 am

    John Kerry. In reply to your comment. Today’s generation is not interested in earning some money. Kids don’t want to shovel snow they are just content to play with their computers and let Mom or Dad do the shoveling.
    Our generation didn’t have much so we were happy to earn some money for something special.

14. Hillary Ellis says:

    February 12, 2015 at 7:45 am

    Thank you, Adrian Martin, for pointing out that you do not need to be elderly or disabled to be unable to get out there and shovel. As a mom of an infant, my only option is to put my 20-pound kid on my chest, zipped up in my coat to stay warm, while I shovel heavy snow and plow mess.
    When it comes to public sidewalks it is disgraceful. The Monroe Avenue bridge over the 490 was several feet deep in snow, making it impossible to walk to the YMCA, the public library, or toward downtown. The roads were clear and dry, but sidewalks were not. It was the same in front of schools, which were open that day even with all the snow.

15. Patrick says:

    February 12, 2015 at 12:26 pm

    Slightly off topic… Who’s brilliant idea was it to use ‘stickers’ for the crosswalks downtown when they repaved the streets last summer? Did anyone really think those stickers would last a winters worth of snow plowing? I noticed that a lot of them didn’t make it through the first snowfall of the season. That was a waste of money.

16. Matthew Denker says:

    February 12, 2015 at 12:29 pm

    I’m pretty open to a variety of solutions to shoveling snow, but when the whole ‘kids are lazy’ BS shows up, the knives come out. Look, I get that it’s super easy to blame it on lazy kids. Lord knows, it’s been done for a long time: http://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/01/misbehaving-children-in-ancient-times/. But it’s cheap. You don’t hear kids blaming old people for not retiring and letting them get that job at the grocery store. Kids probably don’t even know that old people are a huge chunk of the reason they can’t get a job anymore. It just seems like there aren’t any.

    Just ugh.

17. Howard Decker says:

    February 12, 2015 at 8:13 pm

    Ah, Matthew, you encourage some of us, who are older or much older, to recall our younger winter days, when we used to ring doorbells to unearth paying snow shoveling opportunities. I can report that in my relatively brief time here in Rochester, our door has been approached exactly once, and it wasn’t this winter.

    I must say, I don’t think this is about laziness. It’s about some other, interesting, and fundamental shifts in how we think about who we are and what we want.

    And by the way, I’m not hogging any kid’s job.

18. Puddle Jumper Photo says:

    February 12, 2015 at 9:41 pm

    http://www.ithacajournal.com/story/news/public-safety/2015/02/09/ithaca-tompkins-snow-day/23110285/

    Ithaca keeps up with it. I’ve seen enough of the barely touched sidewalks that get worse when driveway plows dump their snow on it too.

19. Amy says:

    February 12, 2015 at 9:53 pm

    This whole kids things is a bit absurd and completely off topic. First of all, many kids would not feel comfortable going door to door asking to shovel as there is an entire culture based on “don’t talk to strangers”. Secondly, blaming people for something you disagree with is no way to find a solution. There are codes in place, plain and simple. I am sure many people are unaware of the codes, and as active citizens within Rochester it is our duty to share the information for those who do not know (which is exactly what this post, and sharing it among facebook/blogs/websites is doing). It is also our civic duty to write, email, and call our local government to share our voices. Placing blame on others and complaining about a code/reasons why it isn’t fair just isn’t a good solution. There are ways around not being home, there are services provided by the good people of our community in order to keep sidewalks clean. If someone is unable to do so they have every ability to hire out, if someone cannot afford it and are unable, then they should talk to their local representatives or face being ticketed. There are always exceptions, people aren’t made of stone.

    I am shocked by how negative some of the comments have been on here and on facebook. We are all living in Rochester (or should be if we are voicing an opinion on this), and we all want Rochester to be a great place for people to live. Regardless if you use the sidewalks or not, people are people and deserve to get to their destinations safely. If you are a person driving and complaining about somebody walking in the street, set your car aside and spend a day in their shoes. Enough harsh/negative language and start creating solutions and compromise.

20. Irene says:

    February 12, 2015 at 10:44 pm

    Sidewalks are a critical part of our transportation infrastructure and leaving it to individuals isn’t working. All it takes is one un shoveled patch to make the whole block impassable. The city should plow sidewalks like it does streets. I doubt it would cost much more than tracking and ticketing property owners. Brighton sidewalks are cleared really well by the town, so that would give a realistic cost estimate per mile. The city’s “supplemental plowing” seems to just confuse people, who see the plowing item on their tax bill and think it means the city is responsible.

21. Ruth Nederlk says:

    February 13, 2015 at 4:53 am

    Sorry Matthew If feelings were hurt. and like Howard said it does bring back memories of another generation and can not know of the poorer times and the reasons and yes it is not solving today’s problems. . It is also wrong to blame the elderly for taking anyone’s job. Not so! Hope you can find a solution to your problem. I leave this in your hands and the politics who are in charge.

22. Peter says:

    February 13, 2015 at 8:19 am

    They’re trying to avoid fines
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/01/28/teens-seeking-snow-shoveling-cash-run-afoul-law/22454761/

23. Matthew Denker says:

    February 13, 2015 at 10:55 am

    Older people assuredly are holding onto jobs at the risk of younger ones: http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/the-exchange/baby-boomers-jobs-younger-workers-214210886.html

    Going back to shoveling, I strongly support a progressive (income based) tax structure to address the problem. Any sort of flat tax to do it would be too regressive to be fair.

24. ACW says:

    February 13, 2015 at 12:01 pm

    What happens if an elderly person has a fire hydrant in front of her house? I assume she pays someone to clear the snow around the hydrant, or a friendly neighbor helps out for free. The same thing would happen on a larger scale if the city enforced its code on clearing sidewalks.

25. RochesterSubway.com says:

    February 17, 2015 at 2:07 pm

    UPDATE: Gary Kirkmire, the City’s director of inspection and compliance services, says:

    Issues involving the need to maintain the sidewalk free of snow and other obstructions can be reported to your local Neighborhood Service Center, see below, or after the normal business hours of 8am – 5pm, call 311.

    Southeast NSC – 428-7640
    Northeast NSC – 428-7660
    Northwest NSC – 428-7620
    Southwest NSC – 428-7630

26. Martin Edic says:

    February 17, 2015 at 3:17 pm

    Gary, sidewalks on East, Park and Alexander have not been plowed since last week. In the meantime we had 8-10″ of snow that is now all packed and uneven rendering walking nearly impossible. This is completely unacceptable and it has happened after every major snowfall in the past two years.

27. daggar says:

    February 23, 2015 at 6:32 pm

    Sidewalk-shoveling laws seem to predate the rise of car culture. A modern sidewalk often ends up buried in road plow avalanche. In these cases, requiring individuals to dig through several feet of compressed, refrozen plow scree would probably give rise to lawsuits from heart failures, back injuries and other maladies.

    On larger streets, the sidewalks have enough clearance from the road. These often get at least some help from a sidewalk plow. The more dense neighborhoods have sidewalks closer to the curb, though– and many of these never see a plow. I live on a corner where one street gets plowed, and a one-way street that never sees a sidewalk plow but the sidewalks are very close to the street. Shoveling that one-ways’ sidewalk out would require a team of sherpas.

    The sensible solution might be to declare certain side streets as “pedestrian highways” when the snow gets bad. In any case, street-shoveling laws from before a time before the sidewalk might be buried under two lanes of snow probably wants some adjustment.

28. Deb says:

    December 16, 2015 at 9:47 am

    This is going to be a hardship for me if this law gets enforced. I am disabled and live on social security that means a very limited income. I live on a very busy blvd. and am very stressed every winter because the street plows a very large amount of snow in my driveway and on the sidewalks. It sometimes costs me up to 60 dollars a day to keep my driveway clear because the street plows plow this area several times a day. That’s 3 lanes of road surface to be cleared and sometimes plows knock down the mounds of snow that driveway plows plow from our driveways. In the city we only have so much room to put the snow. So now I am expected to pay additional money (that I don’t have) to keep the sidewalk clear. I pay taxes for the sidewalk plow and now I am going to be forced to pay more.This cant happen we all don’t have the means to take care of this.

29. RochesterSubway.com says:

    December 16, 2015 at 6:08 pm

    I don’t think first time offenders should be automatically fined, but after a couple of warnings somethings got to give. Regardless of physical or financial ability, a property needs to be maintained. And sidewalks are part of that responsibility.

    The service we pay for with our taxes is specifically for clearing everything above 4 inches deep (3 or 4 depending on the town where your property is). The first couple inches that the plows can’t remove are supposed to be cleared by the property owner. If that 2 or 3 inches of snow sits there, turns to ice, and then continues to build up, that sidewalk becomes impassable for many people; elderly, disabled, etc. and that is a big problem.

    Not sure what a good solution would be for home owners who can’t shovel and can’t afford to pay someone to do it. Family and neighbors work best. But maybe some kind of assistance program could be designed.

    What would the tax hike have to be in order to pay people to shovel every sidewalk in the county? I wonder.

30. Adrian says:

    December 17, 2015 at 9:36 am

    ” The first couple inches that the plows can’t remove”

    I don’t understand this statement. When the plows plow my sidewalk after heavy snow, it is passable. It’s not like there is a residual layer of 3 inches of snow that I must shovel, after the plow passes. Similarly, when a plow plows a road, the road is clear of snow. It’s not like everyone runs out to the middle of the street to shovel away the 3 inches of snow on the road that the plow can’t get.
    If a sidewalk is so incredibly uneven that there are 3 inch divots that a plow can’t scrape, then that’s a separate issue and it means the sidewalk needs to be redone.
    Clearing sidewalks of snow does not require an army of people shoveling.

31. Martin Edic says:

    December 17, 2015 at 10:01 am

    I think it is great that this discussion continues when we have no foreseeable snow in the forecast.
    Adrian, in the East side the sidewalk plows are 1940s era tractors with V-blade plows. Because this is a preservation district the sidewalks often have slate slabs and other inconsistent surfaces. These plows cannot take the bottom 3-4″ of snow off the walks. They skim the surface. Modern equipment is more like snowblowers that can clear a walkway but, unless it is very flat, they cannot move fast enough.
    Mike G., is right- the solution is to ask the owners to remove the base layer before it freezes, thaws and refreezes. Last year on East Ave, where I live, this base layer was eight inches deep by Feb and hard as a rock and extremely uneven. And very dangerous. I am in very good shape but took a fall bad enough to blacken both my eyes (I face planted into a pile of plow ice). It’s a real problem. Though not so far this year!

32. Scott Wagner says:

    December 17, 2015 at 10:22 am

    I would like to make a differentiation here between businesses and residences. The above cited residential shoveling problems indicate that residence owners are deserving of some leniency – and with this I agree.
    However, a significant number of businesses hire snow removal services to clear their parking lots and entryways, and leave the public sidewalks, crosswalks, and bus shelters within their street frontage untouched. A large fraction of pedestrian traffic, and almost all commercial pedestrian traffic, is affected by this. It is these businesses which should be severely penalized.
    For example, last year I commented on a woman with a toddler and a baby in a stroller forced to wait for a bus in the travel lane of East Henrietta Road because the sidewalk and bus stop were completely inaccessible and piled high with filthy snow. The adjacent businesses are New Number One Chinese and Pod Computers, 1925 South Ave. Their parking lot and business access doors were well cleared and free of snow.
    I would strongly favour the City of Rochester hiring a contractor to remove snow in front of non-compliant commercial properties 24 hours after a snow event, with billing to the property owner or occupant and a hefty surcharge added to the contractor’s fee.

33. Renee says:

    December 17, 2015 at 1:07 pm

    I’ll chime in here too, regarding the “The first couple inches that the plows can’t remove” comment. I walked to work every day along East Ave last winter. Like Martin mentioned, it was an icy mess. We had lots of small storms, plus warm then cold weather — all before we reached the 4″ threshold when the plows deployed. When we did get a big storm, the plows came out but could touch that icy stuff from previous storms.

    The curbs/intersections and bus stops were impossible to get over unless you were wearing your hiking gear, which is why you saw people walking and waiting for buses on the street. It was a crappy confusing long winter.

    I don’t think there is one solution. And I’m not a big fan of immediately doling out fines. People get sick, they go out of town, they have to get to work, etc. so they can’t always get to their little piece of sidewalk. And many people I talked to last year thought the plows automatically came around, regardless of the amount of snow. It’s going to take a community effort, in addition to the City stepping up its services, to keep things clear. That’s why efforts like the Great Rochester Snow Down (Reconnect Rochester) are good. We can all help each other out.

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